Agency Forward

Chris DuBois: [00:00:00] . So what do most companies get wrong about go to market strategies?

Garrett Jestice: Man, what a loaded question to start off. There's too many things, right? I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you two quick answers here, Chris. I think the first one is they don't do it. So what I hear so often when I work with, you know, small growing agencies is that they got to this point where they had some sales, they had some momentum, they wanted to start doing better marketing.

And so they jumped straight to channel execution. So they go out and they hire. An SEO agency or freelancer or someone to run paid ads for them or whatever it is. Right. And they skip over that core go to market strategy phase, which is exactly what you need to do to help those agencies or freelancers executing be successful.

So that's kind of part one. Part two, which I'm sure we'll talk more about in our conversation today is I actually [00:01:00] think that you should start at the bottom of your funnel. And work your way back up when starting with marketing, most companies start at the very top with how do we get brand awareness, right?

How do we get more people to our website? And then how do we get them to convert into leads? And then how do we get those leads to close? Right. And I actually think that that's the wrong way to approach it. If you do that often, what you're doing is you're filling a leaky bucket. And so instead you should start even post sale.

You should identify Who are your best fit customers who love what you do and you provide real value to them? And have you been able to produce testimonials or case studies or reviews from them? Right? Once you understand them deeply, then it's moving back up to how do we close more just like them? And then how do we.

You know, convert more people who land on our website and then finally like top of funnel. Right. And so those are kind of the two things that I see most often when it comes to go to market strategy, it's either not doing it or it's approaching it from a backwards [00:02:00] direction where you start at the top of the funnel and work your way down.

Chris DuBois: Yeah. That second one is something that's always bothered me. With like when I was running an agency where that's what our clients want. It's like, I just need more eyes. It's like, yeah, but we're going to send them to your site. That sucks. Like what, why would we do that? Right. Like Oh, what's his name?

Paul Graham. My combinator, I think it's Paul man might be drawn a blank right now, but. Like I said, do things that don't scale right as a startup. And like, when you, if you can just have a great website that really captures what you need, even if it's a single landing page at the start, right. For your bottom of the funnel type content, you can go manually talk to people and send them there.

And that should be enough to get things kicked off. Right. And while verifying your messaging, like doing all the things that you should be doing before, like, as you're going to market. I guess yeah, why is it just that we're too tied to like vanity metrics? And it's like, well, if I just hit a thousand people and get them to this page, there's a chance one of them will buy.

And like, maybe that's the approach I need to take. Why do you think people do [00:03:00] that?

Garrett Jestice: It's a good question. I honestly, I don't know the exact answer to it. I think it can stem from, you know, some of the vanity metric stuff that you said. I also think it is often when founders CEOs don't come from a marketing background, right. Or come from just a marketing executional background where maybe they were an expert at running paid ads.

They miss the. Entire value that marketing can provide across your entire funnel, right? They don't think of marketing. I think that's one of the problems that we face just in B2B in general. Today, a lot of times companies don't think of marketing as anything more than top of funnel get eyeballs. Get me leads.

Like the execution of those channels when I really think like good strategic marketing can and should extend across your entire funnel, right? It should start with like post sale, like again, helping you identify who those best fit customers are and testimonials and case studies, and then helping deals close [00:04:00] and, you know, communicating your value across your website and then finally executing channels.

So I don't know, that's kind of my take. But I don't know, what have you seen?

Chris DuBois: Well, so you just got me thinking as well. One, I think one of the reasons why marketing teams are one of the first ones cut like over sales is because of how close they are to the revenue. Right. And I think when you look at like a marketing agency, they're probably pretty close to getting cut fast because of like, for the same reasons, right.

They're not that close to the revenue, but probably because most of them are starting with top of funnel content, right. They're just trying to build awareness, but if they started on the opposite end and can directly tie the work that they're doing to the revenue, it's much harder to get rid of those assets, right.

And like lean into the resource that you know, with the value that they can provide you. And so, so I think that's probably a. Huge, just, yeah, just like one massive tip that you could potentially take from this episode is like, bring yourself closer to the revenue. And that doesn't start with top of the funnel content [00:05:00] and yeah, production.

Garrett Jestice: We help you increase revenue is always the easiest value proposition to sell across any company, right? There's other value propositions that you could offer. And you gotta be honest with, you know, there are sometimes, you know, I've worked with agencies in the past where, you know, it's a video production agency.

And they're claiming to increase revenue, but they don't really have the ability to showcase that. And so you have to be honest with that, but, but again, always the closer you can get to revenue and that being your true value proposition the easier it is to sell for sure.

Chris DuBois: Right. Oh, and it's easier to prove out if you get like your ROI and stuff. But I've talked to a lot of other, other types of agencies like even like LinkedIn ghostwriting, right. That is very top of funnel. And. When talking about like, well, what metrics are you looking at? And they're like, well, customers sold.

And it's like, there's a very large, like disconnect between what you're offering. And then the client having to do a bunch of work in between to get that sold client. So like, you're just trying to show attribution, I guess. [00:06:00] And you're like, well, we brought you him. So like, that's why you closed it. It's like, no, there were like 20 other steps in there.

Like I promise. Yeah, that's it, man. That's an interesting one. So let's, let's go back actually to the first Challenger things that companies get wrong that you mentioned, which is that they just don't do it. Why is it a lack of knowledge, a lack of awareness that they get too excited, right? No startup founders ever.

Excited about being patient and having to take steps to get to a result. Like, why are they skipping their go to market strategy?

Garrett Jestice: Honestly, I think it's a combination of all this stuff that we've talked about so far. It's, it's the stuff that you just said, where they just get excited. They're moving quickly. They don't want to take the time to slow down, to put together a strategy that sounds like something that is boring or tedious or not productive.

They just want to execute, right? A lot of times early stage founders are just in the execute, execute, execute mindset. Right. But I also think that it kind of goes back to what we talked about [00:07:00] earlier as well, that. They don't understand the true value. That marketing can provide, they see it as just top of funnel, get me leads, you know, get me more eyeballs and they don't understand how it can extend through their entire funnel.

Right? And so they don't approach it strategically. They approach it executionally, and they just look for someone who can get them more leads or get them more eyeballs or get them more traffic to their website.

Chris DuBois: Yeah. So I guess what's the solution for shifting that mindset?

Garrett Jestice: It's a good

Chris DuBois: another easy question, right?

Garrett Jestice: yeah, I mean, I think it takes time, right? I like, I think that, you know, Experienced founders who have done multiple companies often get it like after they've made that mistake once, like they've seen it. I, I have conversations all the time with founders who have skipped over the kind of go to market strategy piece, they've jumped straight to hiring.

Right. Someone to help them do SEO or PPC or whatever. Four months down the road, they're just really [00:08:00] underwhelmed with the results. And they think it's the agency's fault. Or sometimes they even say, Oh, that channel just doesn't work for us. And often I have to help reeducate them that, you know, most agencies do really good work, otherwise they wouldn't be around.

Very long. They wouldn't have clients. Right. But what you need to do is you need to go in with the foundational pieces that help them to be successful. Right. Any agency, when you go in, before they start executing a channel, they need to know clearly who are you targeting, right? Like who are your best fit customers that you're trying to replicate, right.

And knowing specifically how to target them. What do you say to them? Like, what's the messaging and positioning component that really resonates with that audience, right? Why are you picking. The acquisition channels that you are like, have you actually validated that those are the right channels to pick?

Or are you just doing kind of random acts of marketing? And if you can go in with that knowledge as a founder and say, Agency freelancer, this is why I'm hiring you. This is [00:09:00] all the information that we have. You're setting them up for success. And so they're just much more likely to be successful in helping you get results.

And I think that's the gap that I often see is. Founders don't see that as their job, or they don't understand the importance of going with that knowledge to the agency before they hire them.

Chris DuBois: Right, which is excuse me, which is more. Like, gives more reason more credence of the idea of agencies being those strategic experts who can come in and offer the advice that you actually need to kind of shore up some of those blind spots that you have with your team. Yeah, I'm just hoping, like, I need more people to understand that message, but

Garrett Jestice: I will say though, I mean, to push on that a little bit most agencies don't do that, right? Most agencies, right? Who focus on execution, channel execution or freelancers, right? You can put them in that bucket. Like if, if what your specialty is, is SEO or running ads or [00:10:00] whatever is, I mean, the truth is it's really difficult to be able to go deep enough and extend deep enough into the foundational strategy.

I just think that it's, it's incredibly hard for agencies to do that. So again, I'm not saying that they shouldn't try. Right. But I think that. The pressure is always when you're an SEO agency, when you're a PPC agency, how quickly can we get the ROI? So they naturally have this pressure to skip over those foundations if they're not already done.

Right. And so anyways, that that's kind of the gap that it's kind of why I'm doing what I'm doing. That's kind of the gap in the market that I'm trying to fill is like helping to be that first stop for. You know, any types of B2B companies, especially agencies who are looking to do marketing, but need those foundations locked in.

It's like, let's just pause here for a minute. Let's take a couple of weeks and get you all those foundations. And then you take that to, you know, these agencies or freelancers who can really help you execute and do well. So

Chris DuBois: right. So, I guess, what's, what's the 1st step [00:11:00] in building developing your go to market strategy?

Garrett Jestice: first step is identifying who your best fit customers are. And I think that's, that's it. So most companies go through an evolution of kind of three phases of growth, right? Phase one is you sell anything. To anyone who will give you money, right? When you're just starting out, a lot of times it's, you know, you have different offers, you have different services and you have different audiences, right?

And you're selling to learn what works and what's sticking and essentially what your quote unquote product market fit looks like, right? Phase two is eventually using what you learn to niche down to identify the one offer. Right. That's best for the one segment that you want to focus on selling to.

That's when you get tight with your messaging and positioning and your acquisition channels. And then phase three is after you've built a good acquisition motion for that niche offer [00:12:00] and audience, then you can expand over time and you expand either by adding new offers. Or new audience segments. Right.

And so the first step usually is between phase one and phase two, right? You've sold anything to everyone. And now you're at a point where you need to identify, let's let's take a look at your data. Let's take a look at the customers who you've sold the last 12 months. And what did they buy and who are the best ones, which one should we focus on and identifying the right market segment to focus on and itch down.

And the right offer that they want to buy is kind of that first step.

Chris DuBois: Right. So, you're essentially right. 1st phase, you're collecting data. You're just trying to see, like, what's working, what sticks so that you can, as you progress, you're making better, more informed decisions. As it goes on I talked in a different podcast. We don't need to get into it fully here, but like there's a, the D I K W pyramid of data, information, knowledge, wisdom.

And as you go up, you need, you know, you apply [00:13:00] context and you apply meaning, and then you have insights and. I think if more agencies fell in, like understood how that works, like they could realize like, Oh, if I collect enough data, I can actually turn this eventually into wisdom. And now that strategic gap that we're talking about becomes super easy for them to, to manage because they're the ones who have these reps of seeing it over and over.

But so. All right, so we got our

Garrett Jestice: to that point real quick, Chris? So, so one of the things that I believe that is different, I think, than a lot of marketers, right. Is that every, every B2B company should start by selling. Right. And the reason why is you sell to learn, you sell before you dive deep into doing marketing.

And the reason why is you know, a lot of times companies want to start with market research and there is value in doing market research, like before you launch a company to kind of figure out where to focus. But the most value comes from actually selling and fulfilling, right? Because that's the real data that you want to base your strategy on.[00:14:00]

And if you just base your strategy on market research, you might get into it and realize you were wrong. Like you're making assumptions when it comes to some research. And so it has to start with selling and fulfilling and getting satisfied customers. And then it's just replicating that success that you've already found identifying of all these segments.

We've sold all these offers. Which one's the best one we should focus on. And then let's just replicate that. Let's just go find more people and sell that same thing. So, I mean, that's one of my core beliefs that I think is different than a lot of marketers, right. It is essentially like you got to do sales before marketing.

Chris DuBois: Yeah. I think what a lot of the marketers are missing is that when you can go one to one with someone in a sales conversation, you get to hear their objections live. You're not making guesses. You're not trying to verify that, like they're telling you what the issue is. And then the sales rep gets to try tackling that.

Immediately. And as long as you're recording these conversations, passing the information along right now, your marketing gets way stronger by being able to use this. And then [00:15:00] similar to the customer success team, right. As you mentioned with delivery, it's like, keep asking questions. They're going to have objections and issues.

And the more they bring up, the easier it is to find like, well, who is this a best fit for? So we can actually target those individuals. Crazy that that's lost. Like it, it doesn't. It feels so common sensical when you say it out loud, but it's like, it's something that so many people are missing. And I guess it goes back to the common sense isn't very common type saying, but it's like, it's 1 of those things.

Okay. So we got our ideal customer nailed down. What are we doing next?

Garrett Jestice: So I think the, the first thing is, do you really know what you need to know to about that customer segment to find more just like them, right? And so I guess that kind of goes back to building an ideal customer profile or buyer personas. And truthfully, my mindset about those have changed a lot. When I first started in marketing, I thought.

That those were just [00:16:00] fluffy, that they weren't valuable. And truthfully they are for a lot of companies. And the reason why is they're not data backed. They're just an average of a made up persona. And I think that the best ICPs, the best buyer personas are based on your real customer data, right? So once you've identified, okay, these are our best fit customers.

You have to be able to put together the attributes. Of those best fit customers. Some of the, the first stuff is, okay, what are the firmographics? Like what industries are they in? What company sizes, right? What's the title of the person who you're selling to? There's often technographics, right? So like what technology are they using?

Then there's qualifying characteristics. So what other internal facts do we know about our best fit customers? Right? And that can be anything and everything. And often you can't find that in third party data. It's just kind of internal facts that you discover through the sales process. And then there's kind of the intent signals, like what are the buying triggers that help us know that someone's in market?

And so part of it is identifying all of those. Attributes of your best fit customers, right? [00:17:00] Before you move on to the next phase. I also think that, you know, before you can build a deep, good, strong, mark, good, go to market strategy, you have to actually then go talk to those people. You have to understand what happens from the first moment when they consider buying a solution like yours till they buy from you and are a satisfied.

Client or customer, right? And I think too many companies assume that they know enough about their customers, that they don't do that critical piece of setting up five or 10 conversations for 30 minutes with them. And really truly understanding, because if you do that, they're going to tell you.

Everything you need to know to improve your messaging and positioning, to improve the channels that you focus on to find more people just like them.

Chris DuBois: Right. Yeah. One of, so doing an ICP is one of the exercises I do with my clients and I've literally had people put for like the gender down as on in what we're going through demographics and I'm like, well, 50, 50 male, female, [00:18:00] like, then why do we care? Like, why are we putting it in there? Right. Like, it's like some of the fluff that goes into these things.

It's like, how is that actually making us better? And so I thought about it and I just realized, Oh, if I just add one little section at the top of this. Give me your best fit current client. Who's like actually giving you money and then right under it. Give me your like a dream client, right? Someone that you know, who like looks like they meet all the perfect stuff.

And that has led to more conversations. As we're filling out the I. C. P. that has led to like us knowing what other questions we need to be asking those individuals when we go into like those interviews. You know, as you're referencing

Garrett Jestice: Yeah. I often, I think a customer profile, like an accurate customer profile of your single best fit customer is much more valuable or actionable than an average ICP across tons of different customers, right? Like if you can really put together one single profile that has the You know, the breakdown of all those different things, then it's just a matter of how do I go find more people?

Just like that.[00:19:00]

Chris DuBois: right? Yeah. There's probably something to be said and now I'm just thinking about this on the spot. So if it's stupid, forgive me, everyone. But. When you have, like, that ideal customer profile, there's a good chance that a lot of your other like potential customers want to be like that ideal customer.

Right? And so by identifying who is this ideal customer, it's also like a dream outcome for them to be more like that person. And so when you start having certain messages, like, Do you want these outcomes? They're, it's going to resonate with them. Cause it's something that they actually want, right? They can see the person that you're talking about.

Garrett Jestice: It's so counterintuitive for a lot of founders that especially don't come from a marketing background, but the more you focus, I like to think of it as like concentric rings, like a bullseye, right? The more you focus on the center of that bullseye and get specific with, this is exactly Who were targeting you speak to their, their problems that they're facing, right?

All of those things. You naturally, you think that by [00:20:00] focusing, you're going to, you're going to make people who are in those outer rings want, you know, to go somewhere else. And if, if they're far enough away that, yeah, you will, but you actually end up attracting those outer people in those outer rings who want to be like that center bulls.

I just like what you said. Right?

Chris DuBois: yeah. And then they, you're essentially coaching your, your audience, like into the persona that you want them to take. And so a couple of birds with with one stone let's talk messaging and positioning. For as you're developing your strategy, right? We know we know who were who were targeting some of the things that they actually care about their fears, their, you know, their goals, all of those things.

How are you? Like, what types of exercises are you doing to ensure that the message is actually something that will resonate with them as you go to market?

Garrett Jestice: Yeah, it's a great question. And again, I think it goes back to what we just talked about a minute ago. It has to start with actually interviewing and talking to some of those best fit clients, right? And asking them questions about kind of their journey and what they cared about and which alternatives [00:21:00] they compared you against, right?

Which isn't always a direct competitor, right? It might be. Status quo, a manual process, something like that, right? And so asking those right questions through interviews really helps you identify some of the core positioning pieces. Positioning is really just some of the strategic decisions that you have to make as a team in terms of what you're going to.

Focus on, like, which direction you're going to go. So it's things like, what do we, what's our category? Like, what do we, how do we describe what we do? Right? What's our core value that we provide? What makes us unique? What are the alternatives that people are considering us against? And then. What makes us differentiated or unique compared to those primary alternatives.

Right. And then messaging flows out of that. It's really like kind of the core messages that you want to communicate your point of view about the market, right. And the solutions in the market and, and kind of what makes you different and some of the core other messaging on the website. So part of it is starting with customer research and identifying that.

I will say though, the second piece of it that a lot of [00:22:00] companies miss is making sure that you get alignment across your entire team. And it's, it's. Only, only half the problem is getting the answer. The other half is making sure that everyone's bought into the answer. So what I often do is I do some, some, some form of workshop with teams.

Even I've even worked with agencies or, you know, professional services that were like two founders and that's it. And they were like, yeah, we don't need to do that. We're, we're pretty aligned. And then we got into like a discussion and a workshop and they're like, Oh, actually like we have, we differ on these opinions.

Like, I'm glad we're doing this. Right. So alignment is kind of the second piece because that helps make sure that. Whatever you just decided in that workshop is actually going to get executed when you move into marketing and sales and customer success and anything else.

Chris DuBois: So I love that you brought up alignment because when. As soon as you started talking about everything with positioning and messaging, I literally wrote that down as a follow up question. Like, how do you align the teams on that? And so I'm going to follow up with like, a similar question, I guess. Right?

So we can get them aligned on the positioning and the messaging, but [00:23:00] now, as you're actually executing in the go to market strategy, how are you keeping them aligned? To, you know, if, yeah, we want to start with sales and keep that information flowing to marketing and success team, same way, but how are we making sure that they're actually sharing data, you know, cross teams to continue refining that strategy and make sure that it is the best thing going forward.

Garrett Jestice: Yeah, it's a great question. And, and I don't think that there's, at least I haven't found an easy answer to it, right? And so every company is a little bit different. It comes down to like, what's your operating cadence look like? Do you have a touch point where all your core go to market teams, or at least leaders can come together and discuss what's working, what's not, what they're learning as your ICP evolves, as your positioning evolves, because usually it evolves every, you know, 12 to 24 months, like your ICP is going to change a little bit.

At many companies, right? Your messaging position is going to change a little bit. So having regular check ins, you know, biweekly, at least monthly, where those teams can get together and share what [00:24:00] they're learning is such a key piece. Right. I think the other piece is making sure, you know, what. Your decisions actually mean in execution, right?

As a quick example, I, I worked recently with an agency and, you know, we had talked about, Hey, we need to focus. We're kind of moving from that phase one, like we talked about in a phase two at the stage that they're at. And so we went through this process. We identified kind of the ICP and the two segments that they really wanted to focus on, but then.

They didn't really, I think, internalize what that meant when it came to execution, because after that, you know, one of their marketing people went and created a whole bunch of like 10 different industry pages for all the different industries that they serve on their website. Right. And I think that you need some coaching and some reminders sometimes of like, okay, we made this decision.

What it means is like, we're, we're not going to do that type of stuff, right? Like we're going to focus all of our efforts as much as we can on these segments that we talked about, right? We're not going to waste time [00:25:00] creating industry pages for for industries that we're not going to be. Spending our marketing dollars and sales dollars targeting, right?

And so sometimes you need some reminders. Often I stick around as like a coach or an advisor to, with a lot of my clients after helping them do that foundational work to, to really help them for those ongoing months, make those executional decisions that help them bring the strategy to life, if you will.

Chris DuBois: Right. So what I guess for someone listening who realizes, Hey, I probably skipped a step and I need to go back and relook at my go to market strategy. What's the, the 80, 20, and I guess I probably know what, what your answer is going to be based on our conversation already, but like, what, what's the quickest way for them to get some result now.

Garrett Jestice: Yeah, I think there's, there's just a couple of core foundations that you need to have a good go to market strategy. Right. And, and usually this is what I talk about. Number one is like, we've already talked about is, do you know who [00:26:00] your best fit customers are? The ones who've gotten results and have you actually talked to them?

And if not, go do that. Right. And write down who they are, right? The goal of good marketing and sales in the early stages is to replicate your best fit customers. That's it. And so if you can really understand who that is. Then you just have to direct all of your resources and activities to try and find more people just like that and talk about the problems that they already told you that they care about.

Right? And the results that you got them. So 1st is your audience, like, really understand your best fit customers. 2nd typically is do you have the right offer? Right? So often you have lots of different services or offers, but. That best fit customer cares about one or two. Those are the ones you should lead with.

Those are the ones you should talk about and focus on. Right. The third is really like your messaging positioning specifically across your website and in your sales pitch and making sure that those are aligned. And again, if you talk to those best fit customers, they'll tell you a lot of the things that will help you know how to pitch and frame that there's some frameworks that can help, you know, how [00:27:00] to structure and frame, You know conversations also that can be helpful.

And so three messaging positioning and, and four really is which acquisition channels should you focus on? So a lot of times we don't put a lot of thought into, should I actually be running ads? Right? Like how much of my audience really is on LinkedIn as an example, right? Like as a quick example, I'm, I'm working with an agency right now.

That's like a dev agency. And they focus on kind of manufacturing, industrial manufacturing companies who need help with kind of some of their internal operational tools. They help build and manage those, right? LinkedIn wouldn't be a great place for them to go because there's just not very many CEOs at those types of companies.

On LinkedIn, right? Instead there's some other channels that are going to be better for them, right? There's manufacturing specific trade shows and associations that they can go to and be a part of. That's right. And so part of it is just deciding, okay, since we've decided to focus on this [00:28:00] best fit customer, which channels make the most sense to reach them.

And again, if you've talked to your best fit customers and ask them questions, How did you go about looking for a solution? How did you go about finding us? They'll they'll tell you, right? I went to Google. I went to this trade show. I went to whatever. Right. And so those are kind of the core four foundations.

If you can get those locked in and have a good answer and get your team aligned on those things, then it's just about execution after that.

Chris DuBois: Awesome. All right. I got two more questions as we start wrapping up here. The first being what book do you recommend every agency owner should read?

Garrett Jestice: And you gave me a heads up on this one. And there's a couple of good ones. I had a, I have a big stack sitting on my desk right here. The one though, that I'm going to recommend that I think is really good. There's so many that I could recommend, but I actually have it sitting right here. It is demand side sales by Bob Mesta.

And so if you haven't heard of that one, it's a good one. So Bob Mesta came up with the idea of the jobs to be done [00:29:00] framework. And then Clayton Christensen helped popularize that idea who was like a Harvard professor. So he applies that jobs to be done framework. To the sales process. Right. And I think it's a really great way to reframe and think about how to do selling in a, in a really good way.

And again, coming from a marketer, right. This has helped me a lot as I've moved in and built my own company because. You know, when you're, when you have a small company and you're a founder, you're selling like half of your job is being a salesperson. Right. And so it helps you really apply that jobs to be done framework to the sales process and approach it from a more consultative sale where you're sitting on the same side of the table.

As your prospects and looking at the problem together and talking about whether you can be a good fit for helping them solve it or not.

Chris DuBois: Yeah, I'm surprised how many, even marketers aren't super familiar with the jobs to be done framework and it's super valuable. Like I would strongly [00:30:00] encourage people to go check that out. But now I have not heard of this book, so it's going to get added to my, to be read list here. Last question is where can people find you?

Garrett Jestice: Yeah. So find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active there. Garrett justice. My website for my company is prelude marketing. com. So would love to help you. Face any of the challenges that we talked about today. That's the type of stuff that I, I typically help companies with. And then I also have a newsletter that I've just started recently writing where I'm just kind of sharing some of these thoughts and frameworks that have helped me.

It's, it's called GTM foundations. It's on sub stack. So go to market foundations and love to have you check that out and tell me what you think.

Chris DuBois: Awesome. Garrett, thanks for joining.

Garrett Jestice: Thanks so much, Chris. Appreciate it.