Agency Forward

Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey everyone. Today I'm joined by Steve Guberman, founder of agency outside and a business coach for agency owners. Steve has successfully launched, grown and sold thriving agencies and now helps other agency leaders achieve balance profitability and operational excellence. I wanted to bring Steve on the show because his expertise in helping agency owners transition from creative professionals to effective business leaders is invaluable for anyone looking to scale and streamline their agency. In this episode, we discuss how to transition from accidental agency owner to confident leader, the keys to effective goal setting and delegation strategies for building systems that drive growth and reduce stress and more. No one was asking for another community, but I've made one anyway. So what's different the dynamic agency community is designed around access, rather than content. Access to peers who've done it before, access to experts who design solutions, access to resources that have been battle tested, and right now, the price for founding members is only $97 a year. Join today, so your agency has immediate access to everything you need to grow. You can join at Dynamic agency, dot community, and now Steve Guberman, it's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is agency forward. What are you seeing as a major struggles with accidental agency owners? Honestly,

Speaker 1 1:46
they probably aren't even aware that they are, quote, unquote accidental agency owners. They, you know, like myself, went into a gung ho and are still trying to be practitioners and do all the things. And you know, if you look at, you know, quote, unquote, traditional business owners, the CEO the owners, they're not doing all the things. They're being actual CEOs and owners. And, you know, creative professionals seem to think like, Hey, this is my business, and I need to do literally everything. And I think that's one of the biggest, like, you know, Achilles hindrances that they can, you know, hold on to, right?

Chris DuBois 2:23
Have you seen it? I kind of view it like an identity issue, where it's like, they, they're attached to the deliverables so much, and so they, they don't even see that other, like, what's possible, I guess, by moving into the ownership role. Like, is that something similar to what you're seeing? Yeah. I

Speaker 1 2:40
mean, I was a designer, and I opened a design shop, and then suddenly I'm responsible for biz dev and paying the rent, and what's a P and L and forecasting and team members and all these other things that I just it was not on my radar. Also, most of us didn't go to business school, so like the the intricacies of running a business, not even close to on our radar, other than what we learned on the job from our previous employers or internships or whatever. But I wanted to be a designer, and it's like, at what cost, like you're running a business that's not that can't be your chief responsibility anymore, you know? And maybe at some point when, when the machine is operating and it's, like, well oiled. And I've and I've had friends known agency owners, Coach agency owners where, like, cool, I can jump into a project that I want to because they've got up and running to that point, but for a long time that's not going to happen,

Chris DuBois 3:39
right? Yeah, that was something. So as I'm looking at agency design with my clients, it's like, if they're really, like, just fanatical about whatever that creative art is. So yeah, we can design your agency so that you can keep doing that, but it means someone else has to come in and run the show, right? And so you got to be willing to, like, let go of all these things. I think even even that idea is hard, because most people got into the agency space to be their own boss and not have to deal with all of that.

Speaker 1 4:10
Yeah. Even the bigger picture of that is, if I want to be the designer or be the whatever, the coder or whatever, the thing is that I love doing that. Said, well, all you guys are doing it wrong. I'm gonna go, you know, launch my own agency. Hand it, you know, I've got to be responsible for, for biz dev. And that's the, probably one of the last things that an owner is able to, like offload to somebody else. It's one of the hardest things that they can offload to somebody else. So even in thinking about the the big agency, picture agency design, if I really want to focus on the craft that I love that forced me into this spot anyway, accidentally, not doing Biz Dev is one of the hardest things to get out from underneath as the owner, right? So

Chris DuBois 4:57
how would you recommend they actually do? Get out of business because that's a that's a struggle that probably most agency owners listening to this have. They've thought about it at some point, but they just don't know how to how to do it. It's

Speaker 1 5:09
really tough. I mean, just putting a salesperson in place is not going to be the answer. You know, I'm going to hire somebody, they're going to cost me a ton of money, and it's going to eat into my profits and commissions. And that's not the answer. But building an agency that has the right systems in place. So if I've been doing biz dev for 510, 15 years, how systematized is that process? Can somebody follow a process? For me, most are relying on referrals and word of mouth, and they're proud of that. Like, Oh, we've grown to X amount just on referrals alone. It's like, cool think about if you had an actual sales strategy or positioned it, you know properly, like what it would have done for you. But I think doing the work for inbound leads, doing content, presenting, speaking. A lot of that ties back to niching. So, you know, if I'm getting on a stage at the the the plumbing companies, you know, the heck is it called the Home Service Providers marketing expo or whatever, and I'm talking about how great we do at home service marketing, like doing things like that will get the owner start To get the owner out of his Dev, right?

Chris DuBois 6:21
Yeah. I think one of the struggles I've seen with that point in particular is that a lot of agency owners have probably tried having someone else do sales at some point, but they haven't been as successful once they don't have the systems. But then there's also this. It's like, if you're the agency owner in a sales call, you get this, like, stat boost, where it's right, like, if it was a video game character, it's like you have this affinity towards being able to close a deal, one because you can tailor the deal to exactly what you need. But also there's more confidence, I guess, that you're able to carry because you know what you're like able to do, yeah, and so I guess just being able to realize you're not like the perfect salesperson, it's just like you have these abilities that others don't because you're in the seat. So how can you use that seat now to facilitate someone else getting better at the job, and just providing clarity around what you offer? I think, is that first piece?

Speaker 1 7:19
Yeah, I think where it makes sense partnering with somebody. So, like, I was a designer and the creative brain, and had to really force myself to learn sales, biz dev, like I went to Sandler Training. I, like, learned operations of a business. I used to joke with a buddy, my friend Mike, who owns an agency, like, we should join forces because we were both commiserating like, God, this sucks. Why are we doing this? You know, that kind of thing we were, we were cut from the same cough, both designers, both creative guys. It wouldn't make sense for us to partner. But if I had found a, you know, a partner who was, you know, a crack sales person or really great at networking in biz dev, that would have been an amazing compliment, because that person as a partner can then go out and, you know, be founder led sales, and that's a natural thing for them, whereas for me, I want to be a designer. You know what I mean? So I think where it makes sense that right partnership to have somebody else doing biz dev makes sense,

Chris DuBois 8:18
right? And that is a chat like, finding that partner is is hard, right? Because you're generally your circles aren't going to include people with complete opposite thinkings and so, so I guess, how would you go about even finding someone who you could partner with?

Speaker 1 8:36
I mean, what? You know a lot of people I know, they're, we were college buddies, or we dated in college, or, you know, things like that. You know, we were, I see a lot of shops where, you know, let's say the creative director and the head of accounts are like, this place is garbage. Let's go off and do our own thing. And so, you know, miserable employees go off and find their paradise together, kind of thing. Networking, you know, be open to the right introductions, as with all things, like we're the sum of the people we surround ourselves with. And so if I'm surrounding myself with really good people, and I find, hey, this person would be a really good compliment to what I want to be doing. We have the same vision, the same big picture goals, we believe in, the same values and and cultural things. Then, you know, there's an alignment there. You know, yeah, where it makes sense, but there's other challenges there. Now you've got a partner, you've got two mouths to feed, or two families to feed, or whatever that looks like, because so you can't be as scrappy, you know, brings, brings a different set of challenges. Yeah,

Chris DuBois 9:34
so if I heard you right, you should find a partner who's single and doesn't have a family. So, so let's shift gears a bit get into this episode is coming out right at the start of the new year, and so a lot of agencies probably have set some goals and are realizing now, as they kick off the year that maybe they didn't set the best goals or don't know exactly how to tackle the. Process to achieving those goals. What are some of your tips as for agency owners as they kick off this year?

Speaker 1 10:06
Yeah, I'm a big fan of goals. I it goes back to, like, when I was in grade school, my parents, most of them, my dad, would sit us all down right before, like, the new marketing periods. What are your goals for this market period? And I was a horrible student, so I'd be like, Oh, can I get C's like, and, you know, No, Steve, you got to dream bigger. And they were so it was either, like, self diminishing goals of like, maybe I'll get C's, or when he would pressure me, be like, I'll get all A's dad. And it was highly unrealistic and not attainable at all. I don't think, I don't think I ever got on a roll. Art School was my in my future, obviously. So, you know, I believe in the model of smart there's some coaches that believe in the messy goal model, like just big, chaotic, you know, things and then reverse engine engineer them into reality. I think that it's okay to dream big. But start with, you know, the SMART goal model, you know, they got to be specific, measurable, attainable, somewhere. They are relevant and time based. Keep it on my wall.

Chris DuBois 11:12
I always forget the art too. It's like, but

Speaker 1 11:15
if I'm just coming up with, like, year one, I want to make, you know, ten million that's just not attainable. It's just it's not realistic. It's not going to happen. If I say, you know, I want to make X amount of dollars, but I don't put time based on it, it doesn't make sense. If I say I want to make a lot of money or have a lot of employees or have the best clients, it's not specific. So I believe in starting in q4 or, you know, if we're planning on calendar years, start in q4 but get, get a jump in the game and shut off the agency, step away from the agency, whether it's a loan or, you know, with your team or with your spouse or your partner or somebody like, develop what this vision of the business is, the specifics of like, here's what I envision my business being and doing and providing for me and my family and the team that I envision supporting it, and the color of the paint on the walls. And like, the specifics, like, map it out, and then I can say, all right, in the next 12 months, what do I need to accomplish in order to make that picture a reality? And that picture can be a year down, three years down, five years down, but I need to focus on what needs to happen in the next 12 months in order to make that three year picture a reality. You can, you can leverage the, you know, EOS principles of like, find that big, hairy, audacious goal to be hag, they call it, and break that down into, like, quarterly projects and rocks. But I think you need to reverse engineer it into quarterly goals, monthly goals, weekly tasks, daily tasks, that are going to lead to, you know, accomplishing the bigger pictures.

Chris DuBois 13:04
Yeah, something I've noticed is that a lot of agency owners will set a will find that, you know, B, hag and and then anchor to that. And they don't necessarily break it down in a way that is digestible, yeah, even consumable. Forget the digestion part. So they even, like, if they break it down into a monthly like target to be able to hit their annual goal, that monthly targets huge. It's like, okay, but if I don't hit that, and then they end up not hitting it that first month, and then just throw it out and say, Okay, let's move on to something else. And something I found is helpful, at least for me personally. And some of the stuff I've been doing with my business is this idea of incrementalism. And so it's like, what is that smallest step that I can just do every single day that will get me closer to my goal? So even if I don't make any more progress, as long as I do that one little thing, I'm good. And usually it's like 15 minutes to be able to progress. And there are days where I can block my calendar and get a 10 and get a ton, you know, move forward on that. But other days it's like, man, that's it, like, but that's and with, like, my workout schedule, like, personally, now moving away from the agency stuff like, that's helped a lot with, like, just making sure I'm doing something to work out and not feel guilty, you know, come go to bed that night and being like, oh, that's another day. Didn't work out.

Speaker 1 14:24
But there's, there's a lot of parallels there. So I, I start a snowboard workout training program. Typically october 1 didn't start at October 1. And so then I was like, Well, screw it, if I didn't start on time, why am I going to start now? And so I started late, but yesterday I missed it, and today, my fiance came in. Did you work out? Yesterday? I was like, Oh, shoot. So now there's like, a mental game of, well, I failed. Why am I gonna even continue to show up to the game? There was a lot of, you know, I don't call them failures. There's a, it's a, it's a tough work, tough job running an agency. Most of the goals are going to be based on finding. That's like, I want to make X amount of dollars, or I want to grow my team to this, or I want to work with these types of clients. And so they're all numbers based. And so let's say I've got a 60% close rate. Means 40% of the time somebody's saying no to me, and every time somebody says no, says no, is that the equivalent of I didn't work out today, or I didn't show up for myself today, or I didn't do that, and it, like, it can wear us down mentally and emotionally and spiritually and, like, really take a toll on us. And so I've seen agency owners that are like, I can't do this. I'm not thick skinned enough. There's too many no's in whatever that process is. So we've got to, like, prepare ourselves for what you know? What happens if I don't show up today? What happens if I can't show up to the game today? What happens when I shoot my shot and they say, no, like, am I going to keep going, or am I done? It's not, it's not an easy game,

Chris DuBois 15:53
right? Yeah, that's the Battle of entrepreneurship. And it feels, feels lonely at first, and then you're also getting told, No, a lot, probably more than you expected initially. And, yeah, I think the ones that start to thrive are the ones who can grit through that time and come to terms with it

Speaker 1 16:12
and learn from it, like, like, Why did, why are all these no's happening? Or, why, why didn't I feel like I could show up today, or what do we miss? Or, you know, what dials Can I tweak kind of thing, but you know, to your point, like, All right, so if I carve out two hours in the morning to do my exercise and I prioritize that time, can I also time block my biz dev calls? Can I also time block my leadership training? Can I also time block? Like, whatever it is my priorities are. And so for me, my morning starts with, you know, a number of things that are very important to me, but I prioritize that time. So it's the same exercise of, if I want to hit these goals, I've got to, like, reverse engineer it into the smallest amount of time, right? Is it half an hour? Is it an hour? Is it half a day? Whatever you know, and block that time off and use it just for that specific purpose,

Chris DuBois 17:05
right? Yeah, definitely. So let's say with goal setting, I think one of the the other challenges, which we've already kind of discussed a bit, is that the agency owner feels like they need to have their hands on everything. So one of the struggles, I think, of accidental agency owners is their inability to delegate initially, right? It's a learned skill. I don't think a lot of people give it that type of credit where it's like, they just give the task to someone. It's like, well, it's not that easy, right? Like, what are some of the things you're doing to help agency owners be able to delegate more so they can actually achieve the goals, because they're now spreading the workload and giving the right tasks to the right people. I

Speaker 1 17:45
mean, the first to stop making excuses I have nobody to delegate to, or it's quicker to just do it myself. Or, you know that that's probably the, the biggest one I hear is it's easier to just do it myself, you know. And there's that phrase of, you know, you can whatever, teach somebody to fish, and they're gonna, you know, feed their family, or whatever it is, like, whatever an agency owner is doing that is a repetitive task, and they're not documenting it first and foremost, to build those processes. They're missing a huge, huge opportunity you can't scale with. This is kind of like a sidebar of delegation. You can't scale without systems in place. And so if there are things that I'm doing, biz dev, hiring, onboarding clients, writing proposals, washing the kitchen, whatever. Literally, a call I had this morning, the guy was like, Oh, we have a process, process in notion for how to make coffee. It's been revised seven times over the past few years. That's a bit much, but okay, so wish me some coffee, though it better be. I need to drive down there and get some. But so if, if, if I've got all these things trapped in my head, obviously there's no way I'm going to be able to delegate because it's quicker for me to just whatever. Put in the Tag Manager into the website myself, because I know where all the passwords are. So first and foremost, from day one, start documenting things, because the myth of it's quicker for me to do it myself. Like, sure, this time, yeah, but after you've done it seven or eight times, you could have paid somebody a lot less than your time is worth as the owner. So breaking it down into what's my time worth, and seeing the numbers of it is a really good way to say, Oh, my God, that task cost me $200 it would have taken, you know, Joey, the junior designer, twice as long, but I pay him a third of the amount, or, you know what I mean, and so dollar for dollar, it would have been cheaper for him to do it, and now he's got the skills to do it next time without me teaching him. And think about what I just did for that team members, self esteem, self confidence, talent level, skill level, and so everything that I pushed to somebody else to do, not because I'm too lazy, like I used to get in trouble. I. Very guilty of this, I'd reach out to, like, my senior designer, where's the blah, blah blah file? And she'd be like, dude, just go look on the Google drive yourself, or it's in the same place it was last time you told you asked me for it. So, like, not because I'm lazy. That's not a reason to delegate. It's about efficiencies. It's about clearing off the owner's plate or the senior leadership team's plate so they can focus on bigger picture, higher value, longer vision, all that stuff, and again, empowering other people to do great things for them and learn, learn how to do more,

Chris DuBois 20:31
right? Yeah, the the act of documenting feels super cumbersome, but when you realize you're probably going to be doing that task anyways, right until you teach someone else. So why don't you just record yourself doing it like we have enough software out there so you can just slow yourself down a little bit to talk through what you're doing, but you just create a process. And now we have AI, we have all of these other like apps that'll literally create a process for you based off whatever you feed it. So it has never been easier to be able to hand off those tasks. But another piece that I think I see agency owners struggle with within that is the figuring out certain problems, knowing that they can just give a problem to someone like, just delegate the problem, say, hey, I need you to help figure it out. Not like, this is exactly how you do it, but it's like, I don't have time to work on this specifically. It fits in with your skill set. Maybe you can come up with the right solution, and then we can talk about it like that can be incredibly powerful and empowering for those team members. And so I'm surprised that it doesn't happen more and it I don't know. Do you see it as just like they want to hold on to they don't know they can do it. Or is it that they want to hold on to those problems, to be the one who solves it?

Speaker 1 21:46
I don't think it's like, well, maybe it is an ego thing of, I want to be the one that solves it. I just think, you know, we're, like, innately control freaks. You know, there's like, that bevel of, I'm just going to do it myself, and it's because I'm a perfectionist down to the pixel, or again, it's just, it's quicker to do it myself, and we're very short sighted with that. I'd rather just do it, bang it out. I don't want to bother somebody else. I'm a people pleaser, and I don't want to impose. Maybe that goes back to childhood of like, you know, every time I ask for a favor, Dad snapped at me, or, you know, something like that. So effort, I'm just going to do it myself. It's easier, like all those reasons bundled up into one.

Chris DuBois 22:26
Yeah, I think it's interesting to see the different ways brain I mean, we already talked this, but the different ways that brains work and stuff with, you know, looking at partnering and stuff. But like, I had a I was trying to help my designers with an asset, and it was in figma, and I just kind of moved some stuff around to give them an idea. Give them an idea what I wanted. And one of the designers said, Please, don't ever touch one of my designs again. But he was able to point I was I moved something, and it was like, I don't 30 pixels off within this massive, you know, like a we had a framework for a web page, and he was able to just pick it out, like, that level of detail super fast. I'm like, got it so yeah, like, my brain immediately goes to, how can I get someone else who understands this better to do it? And maybe that's part of my military training as well. But I have noticed that a lot of agency owners struggle with that piece, yeah, and the trick that kind of helped with some of the kind of managers as people are stepping up within the agency I was working at was leading into this 1080, 10 principle, where it's like, you give them the first 10% of the project, like guidance, a this is my expectation. Here's how we needed, you know, the timeline. Here's how we need to have it done. All of those, they do the 80% of the work, and then they'll come back with that last 10% to be like, What do you think? What needs to be tweaked and and then that gets you to the 100% where now you can put it in front of a client, or, you know, make it go live on your website, things like that. Yeah, super easy. I hadn't

Speaker 1 23:56
heard of that. I like that kind of breaking it down like that. I do think, you know from a leadership standpoint, it is vital to the success of the relationship, but also, like you said, empowering other people by laying out clear expectations. This is what I need. This is what my expectations of the results are. This is when I need it by I expect it to be this big and in this format and like laid out clearly and then also specifically saying, what do you need from me in order to achieve success here? Do you need me to clear a path ahead for you? Do you need me to clear your schedule? Do you need me to whatever you need from me, like as a leader, with some compassion. This might be, like, a massive thing. It might overwhelm you. It might be something out, out of your comfort zone, or it might just be something you could bang out in two minutes. Like, either way, I want to be supportive, because I'm asking you to do something for me, you know. And I think that both of those are really vital, just for like, from the leadership standpoint, yeah.

Chris DuBois 24:59
Okay, man, that got me going on multiple, multiple threads in my head right now, like ADHD going on. What a lot of people will say, like, don't, don't use a title to lead and stuff, right? Because, obviously, if you have to force people's hand because you have a title, but I think a better way to look at it is if you have a title that gives you the ability to get more resources and do more for your team, to be able to leverage, like, external things and so, like that was perfect example. But the real thing I'd like to kind of go deeper on. I think expectation management is one of those skills that few people come into this business understanding is like a critical aspect right from whether it's with your team, so they know what roles they have to do, whether it's with your clients, so that they understand what's actually going to come from this project, and they're not surprised when you deliver something. What are, what are some of the ways that you like, I guess, help people foster that, that skill of expectation management? Yeah,

Speaker 1 25:59
that's a tough one, because personally and like, spiritually, I really try and like, have zero expectations on people on the world, like, because then you can't be disappointed. But it doesn't work in this instance, right? I'm asking you to do something for me. I'm asking you to sign a proposal, hoping to upgrade the account to something bigger, like all these things that we're doing, there's an expectation of you're going to pay me. You're going to show up because I I pay you like, the work's going to be great, because I've seen your portfolio and you didn't just like fool me in an interview. So again, I think it comes back down to like, clearly communicating and without having, like, clear lines of communication between team members, clients and team members, account people, and like, full open lines of communication. Now I'm getting pissed off because you didn't deliver what I expected you to deliver, even though you didn't read my mind and I didn't tell you. So that doesn't work. Now, I'm, you know, resentful at an employee or my boss or my client or whatever. So I think it all comes down to really true, clear lines of communication, spelling things out, not speaking condescendingly, like, you know, I want it to be, you know, this shade of green or like, anything like that. But I think, yeah, defining milestones, defining goals, defining what success looks like, things like that, yeah,

Chris DuBois 27:28
yeah. I think there's on leaning into like communication. There's probably a line where even the team member needs to know when to push back on those expectations, and an agency owner being able to receive that like, in the way that it's meant, right? When, yeah, you can probably, like, you can see something down through the pixel, right? I cannot. And so when a team member can't, and they're like, Well, hold on, man, that's kind of outside my my range of abilities, being able to say, Okay, well, how can we rework this so that we find the best outcome that I can't hold you accountable to. Yeah, we used to experience

Speaker 1 28:07
that all the time, where it'd be like, All right, we've got this website, and here's this great idea. Well, that's awesome, but that doesn't fit into our budget. And so instead of saying no, it's like, well, how can we re approach that idea, so that it doesn't take 30 hours to build, but maybe we can do it in five hours. Can we, like, fake the JavaScript, or, I don't know, you know, any kind of these things, but instead of, like, being quick to say that's just unrealistic, that can't happen, like, let's ask more questions. Let's continue to be curious. Let's continue to talk through what the challenge is. And you said something earlier that made me think that, like, you know, if a client comes back, it's like, no, no, make it purple. Well, don't give us the answer. Let's talk about why the blue that we gave you doesn't work. Or let's, like, talk through what what we can do to find better success for you, you know, what's the definition of what that success is,

Chris DuBois 29:02
yeah, that's, that's another layer entirely, training the

Unknown Speaker 29:07
client, whole other episode, man,

Chris DuBois 29:10
yeah, like in that example, right? If you, if they just say, No, I just want this purple. It's like, Well, why do you want that purple? Because if we're going to keep working together, there might be other instances where I could just solve for this immediately, like, yeah, and help you get exactly what you want, while still letting us be the experts that we are. Yeah, that's definitely a whole other episode. Well, man, we covered a lot of ground, a bunch of different things, I think so I have, I have two more questions for you with the first being, what book do you recommend every agency owner should read? Oh, man,

Speaker 1 29:45
just a single book. I started one of the books on my shelf. That's probably one of the oldest is the business side of creativity. It's by a guy named Cameron Foote. It's an oldie but a goodie, and he put out a revised version. And so whether it's that one or a book like it, Emily Ruth Cohen's book is out of print now, but you can get the PDF. It's the no BS side of creativity, I think, but a business operations or a business side of what we do, kind of book, I think, is vital, like I can write off 1000 books, but a book that fits within that realm or genre of, like, how do I understand the operations of my business? Because I'm a designer, I'm a developer, I'm a content creator, and I don't know how to do business. Like, I think that's essential to, like, really dig into, and especially if my brain is on that creative side of, like, thinking creatively, I need to really start to learn about business and operations and numbers and pricing and going down that rabbit hole, right? So not a specific book, but, like, that kind of that was, again, it's right there in gold. And, yeah, it was one of my first ones. And, you know, so that kind of a book, I think, is vital, awesome.

Chris DuBois 31:08
The last question is, where can people find you if they want to learn

Speaker 1 31:11
more agency outside.com LinkedIn, my hand. Do you have a handle on LinkedIn? My my LinkedIn handle is agency coach. So

Chris DuBois 31:21
and then got the best handle for an agency coach.

Speaker 1 31:25
I couldn't believe it was literally just this year I got it. I couldn't believe it was still

Chris DuBois 31:29
available. That's gonna be worth money someday I'm gonna sell it.

Speaker 1 31:36
But there and check me out on wherever you get your podcasts. Alongside this one agency bites, is the podcast,

Chris DuBois 31:41
awesome. All right, Steve, thanks for joining. Thank you,

Unknown Speaker 31:45
my friend. It was great to see you and happy to do this.

Chris DuBois 31:52
That's the show everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits. You click the link in the show notes to subscribe to agency forward. On sub stack, you'll get weekly content resources and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai