Agency Forward

Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey, everyone, today I'm joined by Dan Englander and Bobby G Dan helps agencies build outbound systems that actually generate leads. And Bobby is a former agency owner who now advises creative teams and founders on brand and marketing strategy. Dan runs sales schema and specializes in outbound for agencies. So I really wanted his opinion in the future of agencies for this then also, Bobby now serves as a fractional Head of Brand for high growth companies, but because he ran an agency as well, and he now works with companies, he gets to see things from a different perspective. So I wanted to have both Dan and Bobby on because agency owners are navigating rapid changes, and these two have strong, practical views on what comes next. In this episode, we discuss what agencies must do to stay relevant in an AI driven market, why specialization isn't enough without real perspective, how to future proof your positioning, pricing and people and more. No one was asking for another community, but I've made one anyway. So what's different? The dynamic agency community is designed around access, rather than content, access to peers who've done it before, access to experts who've designed solutions, access to resources that have been battle tested. And right now, the price for founding members is only $97 a year. Join today, so your agency has immediate access to everything you need to grow. You can join a dynamic agency dot community and now Bobby Gillespie and Dan Englander. It's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is agency forward. What do you think agencies are going to look like in five years?

Speaker 1 2:00
Big opener, good question. I think it's going to be much more messy and blurry, obviously. I mean, we've already seen agencies change a lot. We've seen situations where publishing organizations have open agencies. We've seen situations where agencies have become kind of more like content marketing organizations and have incorporated teaching. So I just think it's going to get more and more weird, and it's going to get blurrier between the lines of like, deciding what somebody should do and then actually doing it. So whether that's agencies that have their own proprietary gpts And you're just kind of like selling that, or getting more and more into the lines of teaching and so on. I think it's going to keep getting stranger. And I think it's, I think probably like, you know, to sum it up, I think it's probably going to be become more like the consulting model, where it's going to become easier to entwine yourself in, like the end goal that somebody wants, as opposed to just being a service provider. And I think it's going to keep going in that direction. So those are my opinion. Direction. So those are my initial

Speaker 2 3:04
thoughts on it. Yeah, that final point is where I see it, too. And I, in fact, in 2023 I started to see the signs that when I started my agency in 2014 I believe the all under one roof kind of model was ridiculous and obsolete, obsolete at the time. And I think I'm optimizing I'm optimizing it. It's going to get better. Can you hear me? Yeah, okay, but I think that so the agency model in general is kind of not long for this world as is. So what I see happening is like the expert problem solvers, who can connect the dots, who have true intelligence, folks like us, or shout out to me, folks like us are in high demand. And I think with with AI, one of the sort of ripple effects of it is that we've people who are running businesses and brands that need like outsource help, have realized the value of those thinkers and problem solvers, people who come with a philosophical approach to things, instead of just the doers who obsess over a tactic or tool and but we need people who are specialized. So like when we use agencies, it's they're specialized in something. And you know, what loses my interest in them is when I can't field like direct questions, or they're immediately trying to upsell right out the gate when they haven't even done what we need them to do up front. So what I see as the future is that people need to be. Really well read and understand a lot of things, but be able to focus out on complex problems that the clients have, and the ones who won't are going to be struggling, and we know it, they already are struggling.

Chris DuBois 5:18
Yeah, so I think on both the same lines. The one of the benefits of specializing within an agency is that you get to have more repetitions than anyone else, right? You get to see the same problem show up time and time again. You get to keep solving them, which means you now are an expert in this. You see the patterns before anyone else can do this. Yeah, I think the challenge is going to be that new agencies coming up aren't going to get as many turns at that to be able to actually start developing that expertise, and so they're going to default to probably try and try and do full service. They're gonna have one client that asks if they can also do something. They're going to do that, and they're going to end up just killing their business. Yeah, the and I think one of the main reasons is that even if there is still a need for specialized like help within within businesses period, I think that's going to exist forever. I don't know that AI is ever going to be able to, like, completely revolutionize all this, but a lot of businesses are going to believe it can. And so now, rather than just having the competition being other agencies, we have to compete with AI as a solution that you know, our potential clients have the opportunity to execute. So now they can hire an intern, and that intern with AI, even if they can't, I mean, they can get, like, a mediocre result, at least they might be able to even do better after some reps. But the if the CEO of that company, or the CMO, whoever's making the buying decision, says, Well, this is good enough. It's like, now the agencies are just screwed, and so I think it's going to put a lot of agencies out of business, just because we have this additional piece of competition that no one's really set up to to fight against.

Speaker 1 6:54
Yeah. I mean, one, one, I forgot where I heard this. It might have been Max trailer. Might have been somebody else. That basically made the point that's like, is your client, like, one cocktail party conversation away from firing who? Like, is there a bad nose, which stands for your best alternative to negotiated arrangement? Like, is there something that the only reason you're hanging on is just because your client doesn't know about it yet? And maybe they're older, they're stuck in the past, whatever it is, like, that's not a good place to be, and it's kind of fragile, and you don't want to be I mean, sometimes, some of us are there to some extent, but like, you don't want to be there for too long. I think just one last thought on specialization, because I'm, I'm reading the Charlie Munger Almanac, poor Charlie's almanac. If you've ever read that, it's really good. And a point that he makes is, like, we think about Darwinian business stuff, like the classic like, you know, survival the fittest, and the lion hunting a gazelle, and all the Gordon Gekko stuff. But the other side of that equation, if you're thinking about the economy, like it's a rain forest or a natural organism or an environment, is specialization. Like, within a rain forest, if you dig deep enough, there's tons of specialization. And, like, everything and everyone is specialized at all times. So this isn't like a new thing this, and it doesn't mean that there aren't like exceptions to that that have gotten so big that they've managed to, like, avoid it. But overall, it's like a pretty, pretty good way to build a business. I think that's usually like the burden of proof is on showing why that's not going to work for you, not the other way around,

Chris DuBois 8:27
right? To follow that same thread too.

Speaker 2 8:30
I'm sorry. I'm one to always look to nature for the way, because it shows us right there. And, you know, specializations, symbiosis, you know, everything like that, but, but the thing about specialization is, Are you truly an expert if you don't understand, like the outskirts of what you're focusing on? And I think that that's the key that most people miss. They specialize in a tool or a tactic, but not in thinking, not in problem solving, not in understanding the humans. And I obsess over humans, so like, my specialty is understanding and listening and hearing, and I think that serves me well. But then, like I said earlier, like being well read, being creative, being interesting. What makes you interesting? You know, a lot of things about a lot of different stuff that adds to your, you know, John Dewey said that you can't pull things out unless you put things in. Why try to put as much in as possible? I know that Chris is reading like, like, whoa. Like books like, you know, a book a week or something. And I sometimes,

Chris DuBois 9:42
thank you. Thank you for downplaying my accomplishments.

Speaker 2 9:45
No, it's impressive. I've done that a couple years. I've done like 50 books in a year. It's a lot, but it changes you. And last year I had more conversations than I read. That changes you too, right? You're adding all these different ideas and perspectives and points of view, then you apply. Your craft. And I think that is what when people talk about expertise and specializing, they miss that part, because the more you know and how broad your perspective and point of view is, the more valuable your ideas are when you're applying to specific problems, whether people know them or not. And here's another thing about AI, Chris, you made me think about last month, there was like this Google trend around AI that basically said, AI is going to replace everything in your marketing and sales side of your business. No evidence, no proof. No one's actually doing that. But all these CEOs are out there like, this is what the future is. So what's happening, and especially us on like, the service side, whether consultant or an agency, that we're actually some of our clients, or some of the people that would consider working with us think like, Oh, we're just going to create an AI agent to handle that for us and we tell them, No, that's a bad idea. You want to actually conversations with real humans. Why? Why create friction and obstacles to that? Why don't you make that really easy? And then they say, AI, is the future. So, like, there was, like, this crazy spike in that information in June 2025 depending on when you're listening to this, that kind of damaged everybody's mind on how AI becomes a tool to actually improve your business and operations and listen. You know, I'm sure you guys are like me. I use AI a lot, but it's just another tool in my arsenal, and as it does more things, I do more things with it, but it's not going to ever replace like, what question do I ask to get the kind of answers that are going to inform my next choice to improve the outcomes of what I'm focused on, like that, inherently is impossible to replicate, because it's and I even feel a chat GPT. It just wants to placate me. It wants to give me the answer I want to hear, and I don't use it as much as perplexity. Now, not to get into the different ones, but like, there needs to be a level of skepticism and scrutiny, and all these tools we use, whether it's HubSpot or MailChimp or Instagram ads, like thinking about the choices we're making, adds to that level of service So we could provide our clients,

Unknown Speaker 12:39
yeah.

Chris DuBois 12:42
Sorry, go. Chris. Have you guys heard of Blaze? AI for now. So it's a full it's supposed to be this, like full service marketing platform. And I've seen tons of people raving about this, so I use their trial, tested it out, and it's, it is some of the worst marketing outputs that I have ever had, and so obviously, I didn't use any of it. But what was interesting was that so many people are bought into this as it, that it is great at delivering for your all of your marketing creatives and everything and but like, I can do better without, like, with no technology. Just like, sitting here with a pen and pencil like, and like, scribble on, you know, my post it notes here, yeah, or to get something,

Speaker 2 13:25
the promises made by big tech are made by the people selling it. So, like, if we look through the history, just in the past 25 years, where we went from, maybe get a little bit longer we went from, you know, an agency had dozens of creatives, you know, paste up artists and typographers and production artists. And then they had designers and art directors and creative directors photographers to shoot the, you know, the stuff. And then that computer came and replaced half those people with one person. And then Bartek came out and made all these promises about attribution. And they all, they all, they all Fess up. Now it was bullshit. And then that, you know, there was a.com bubble where that was a gold rush. And I think that with AI, there's a different level of how they're marketing it, and or even the tech bros that aren't, they're just simping for them. It's like, if you're not using AI, you're an idiot, or like you're you're worthless. And it's just like, wow, it's just like, it's gone so extreme and negative. It's like, what do you what are you actually selling me? And there's so much money involved, and there's so much infrastructure being created that it's insane. But then when you look at like what martech claimed, and what they were able to deliver, and then how they changed the whole agency model with attribution claims that were false. And how brand fell off the face of the map because there was no ROI. And our ones, all the brands that invested in brands, are like, the ones we all know and spend billions of dollars with. Like, you can see the history playing out in front of us again, and it's like, yeah, like, this is a tool in our toolbox, and yes, it's going to replace a lot of people. It's going to replace the people who didn't learn how to think, didn't learn how to create an idea, then how to create a plan that was based on things that move the brand forward. And so like, yeah, there are people that are on child block, and, you know, sucks for them, but I think that that, you know, checking the sources of who's making these claims place AI. AI is a full service marketing agent. We know full service is a complete fallacy, so like now, it's a tool that's full service gonna replace a whole agency of thinkers. I doubt it, and it won't. And if you have a million dollar a month marketing budget, are you going to say that centers take that million dollars a month to reach these like double revenue goals year after year, and give it to a machine? Who's going to say, yes, that nobody is,

Speaker 1 16:23
yeah, and if you think about the highest level of agency work, you're really kind of like harnessing an emergent property. And one thing that I always get annoyed with is like, there'll be these claims, and they're usually made by somebody that's mad about, you know, political manipulation or propaganda, and it'll sort of something that's something to the effect of so and so's brainwashing this group of people through marketing and real marketers. Like, if you've ever done marketing at a small scale or a big scale, you know that it's really, really hard to change people's underlying belief system. Really, like, what you're doing is you're listening to these whispers and then you're seeing these, like recurrent whispers from lots of different people, and then you're amplifying them, and you're making sense of them and then selling things to them based on that. And those are all emergent properties. So it's like, if you're just looking at, you know, if you're just exclusively using AI to do that, it's almost like you have a security business, and you're looking at, like, security camera footage that's five minutes old. It's like, yeah, it's like, it's almost now, but it's not right now, and it's definitely not the future. So this isn't like an AI take down. I think it's more like, if you're using the tool in so much as it allows you to see emergent properties better, that's great, but it's never going to replace that work. It can't, because it's, yeah, we're haunted by it. It's based on data that exists in another dimension, which is the past, right? So it's like, yeah. The what I want to figure out is, like, can we actually get to the future from it, or is it actually going to be more constraining? Are we going to be more stuck in the past because of it? I think there's a world in which we might be we're just surrounded by this media that's from six months ago.

Speaker 2 18:03
Well, I think I like to be an optimist, and that's a choice you make. And I think that the best leaders or brands are optimists, because you have to be a visionary, and you have to see a future state that doesn't exist. So as long as there's visionaries leading, I don't think that that will happen. I think not, not in every case there certainly I I've always said that, like the best CEOs are visionaries, are marketing people, not just because I'm a marketer, but like the brands I've had the most success and fun with have had a marketer, or all marketers as the executive team, except for the CFO. CFO is the one that's looking past, right? So they're looking at things that already happened to break predictions about things that are going to happen. But a CEO is like, you know, 10 miles down the road, they're good CEO so I think that, you know, just shout out to the optimists out there for leading to something that doesn't exist, and, you know, taking us with them.

Speaker 1 19:17
Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. What I'm trying to figure out is, like, how much does AI get you to that thing that doesn't exist, and that's the thing that's to be seen. I think

Speaker 2 19:32
I want to, I want to try to answer that, because I think that the way I use it, in a way, some of the brands I'm with that are using it in ways that we are moving into the future is that we're constantly thinking about what we're saying to whom, right on what channel, and is that going to get. Us towards our aspirational goal. Big, big, big goal. And I think using AI to help us move faster in some places, you know, with idea creation and some copy play and creating processes and forms and things like that, it helps us do things that we're going to do anyway instead of spending a day on it. Because I know how to research, I know how to write, like, I know how to be creative. I know how to design, like, all those things. Like, I'm like, Okay, this tool can help me do those things too. And the analogy I like to use is like, sometimes it's okay to microwave a pizza, sometimes that's all you need. Doesn't mean it's any good. It's good enough. Okay, yeah, but, but I like to think of it as if I'm microwaving a pizza. What am I learning? So when I'm making a pizza from scratch, then it's better. What am I taking away from this? Am I saving time here that I can reply to something else that will improve me and help me grow. Then, yeah, that's a benefit there. But if I'm saying that, like, I'm, you know, a microwave is going to replace the ball, or as Italian restaurant up the street, like you can't imagine that to be true, but, but people are believing that AI is going to do that with other ball or ass thinkers and providers and service people and creators out there, and we're like, yeah, that's going to happen. Why is it so easier to believe the latter over the former? And that's a rhetorical question for you, dear listener, yeah, yeah.

Chris DuBois 21:46
I think one of the things, when looking at AI usage, the people I know that are thriving with it and actually growing their companies, but not letting it just kind of take over everything. It's just they're asking different questions about how they're using it, rather than, how can I free up time? It's, How can I enable more creative thinking and so and I mean, that's what I'm I use it for a lot of my content creation now, but I'm not using it in the sense of, hey, go write me an article about this. I'm skipping a lot of the actual writing portion of that. Meaning I get to now spend 30 minutes thinking about whatever that topic is, getting all my ideas clear about it, then saying, Hey, here's everything that I want in this article. Here's all my unique ideas, my frameworks. Now let's turn this into something, and then I can edit it. Because the actual act of writing while I listen, I have an English degree, I understand the value of being able to write well, but like for most business writing, you can just get the quick thing out there, get the ideas into someone's head and, like, that's enough. You don't have to be this, like, prolific writer, who's, you know, like,

Speaker 1 22:50
right? I often think that, like, we probably, I'm saying this to myself as much as anybody, but you can just spend way too much time getting, getting things, uh, esthetically smooth and pretty where it's like, I forgot where I heard this, but it's almost the metaphor of, like, the farmers market, where it's like, farmers market, you know, it's kind of a mess. There's nothing, nothing's packaged very well, but like, the quality of all the foods way better than the Whole Foods or whatever. Like, yeah, just go for the farm. Be the farmer's market.

Unknown Speaker 23:17
Yeah. I mean,

Chris DuBois 23:18
look at my website, like it's not, it is not the prettiest website you're going to find on the internet, but it's working. So it's like, the ideas that are on there, right? Apparently, enough for people to to engage with, yeah,

Speaker 2 23:31
I, I kind of say, like, establish the bar for what's good enough and, like, what's good enough for this stage of your business to appeal to this customer type, and it's like, okay, that's the wrong of the ladder we're at, and what's the wrong that we're reaching for. And then I think the the most important part is to be savvy enough pay enough attention to realize that what you have is no longer good enough, and good enough doesn't mean anything other than the way you define it, as a brand, whether it's an individual, a company, whatever. And it's like, okay, what do we need for now? Then it's like, okay, we want to go higher. We want to go three more rungs up higher. It's like, okay, what's good enough for that? Start optimizing day to day to achieve that, and that's how you move forward. And that applies to all aspects of a business. So like, one of the brands I'm with, I'm like, we're aspiring to be, you know, 10 figure brand. So it's like, Okay, what does a 10 figure brand look like. What does it talk like? How does it treat its partners and affiliates? How do we how do we treat each other? What kind of structure do we do? What do we spend our time on and those? Those are important questions to ask so people can like in their gut feel what the answer is. This is not good enough. Uh, for us, if we're trying to be up here and we're here. So I think it's just like, it's a lot of it's very philosophical, and that's kind of my way. But like, that philosophical, those philosophical ideas can give us the points in our roadmap to turn that into things that we could say, like, this isn't good enough. This is good enough. Here's why, and then people can understand their role and responsibility on that team, to be able to go and perform, to hold themselves accountable, to take ownership of things, because they know what they're working towards. And a lot of analogy and metaphor, because I, you know, creative guy, but like, a lot of that stuff translates well into like, like people being able to understand what they're doing and why. And I think, I think my incessant, you know, like one of the, you know, we all have children, like, they ask you why. And sometimes it's like, because I said so, but I ask why, and I really want to know, and I want to know more and more and more and more and like that helps me put together that vision so I can say, Okay, this is what we're trying to do. Then we can't do these things anymore, or these things aren't necessary anymore, or we ignore this criticism and these words and these people or these brands and that that gives us an instant leap forward towards the aspirational state?

Speaker 1 26:25
Yeah, I think that's that's great perspective, and I agree with it. I think what I think, the thing that goes along with that is a lot of the times, like when somebody asks why, an acceptable answer is, I don't know, or that's like outside of my circle of competence, right? And I think that this is important for lots of agencies where, if you don't have any sort of specialization, and then there's some out of left field prospect or client that you've you've never dealt with that industry, you'd have, you know, there's no way that you'd be able to answer a complex why sort of question for them, and being able to say, I don't know is okay. So, yeah,

Speaker 2 27:03
I like to say I wrote about my first book. I don't the answer is no, but I can't wait to find figure it out. I can't wait to learn. And because that was things I wanted to learn about, that was things I was like, I'll do that. Go on this journey with you. But I never did this before, but I've designed enterprise websites for 10 years. So I, I don't know iOS, though. So, like, it was just, like a it was, like a small nuance of, like, Jerry, do this, no, but I can't wait to learn. I think that being humble and honest with ourselves, like, really, for one like, why would you say you do know when you don't, you're a liar if you do, but it's okay to say, I don't know, but it can't be a finite absolute. It's like, I don't know, but, man, I would love to explore that with you. Or do you want to give us some time to think about or, you know what? I know who, who is really good at this. Let me bring them in like that, and you're offering solutions, right? You're offering a path forward, other than saying, Nope, don't know that. Can't do that. Don't want to do that.

Chris DuBois 28:14
Since we have a philosophical theme going, and I have a belief that ignorance is a choice where you can't learn everything right, like you, even if you you try and like you just, there's something that you just don't know about. And ultimately, it's because you made a choice to study something else and learn something else, yeah, and so, but it is a choice, and so if you just acknowledge that, makes it much easier to be able to say, like, you know what? I don't have that answer, but yeah, let's go. Let's go figure it out.

Speaker 1 28:41
Yeah, yeah. And I also think that there's like, usually when somebody isn't willing to say, I don't know. Maybe it's a consultant you've hired. Maybe it's an employee that thinks they know everything, because they don't think they can say, I don't know what, what they think they're doing isn't always lying, but it's sort of like a cognitive bias, where what they're likely to do is look at their their winning lottery ticket numbers, right, and say, here's what's worked. Here's what's worked for me. My numbers are 813, whatever, whatever. And that's very unlikely to work for you, you know. So I think that some of that's cultural. I think some of it is like setting that, you know, nurturing that culture, but a lot of it's just kind of, you know, based on the choices we make and so on.

Chris DuBois 29:23
Yeah, let's tie this back. So how does this gonna influence the future of agencies?

Speaker 2 29:32
I got cognitive bias. Speaking right? It's you reminded me of when we had our first kid and everyone's giving you advice on what you got to do. And I was like, I know what to do. You do what works for us, and you go with the flow, but I don't know if that applies. Applies to raising a human, keeping a human alive that cannot fend for itself for a long time. Yeah, how does that apply to agencies? I think number one that they need to be honest with themselves. I think that that's kind of our last notion. Was that, like, if they're not honest with themselves and they can't talk about what they do for whom, and turn down work, then they're going to they're going to be in that roller coaster that needs them leads them to Chris's front door. So, you know, there's that. But I think that the kind of using agency as a catch all, because there's what, 18 different specialties, I think it's really focusing on helping solve the problems and get early wins as quickly as possible. So how can you structure your company to be able to deliver early wins to your client based on what they're coming to you for? And I think a lot like my most recent agency hiring experience, because I hire and work with agencies, with my clients, is that they come with things, like, you're coming to us for digital marketing, but we've won awards for our video work. I actually don't care one bit about that. In fact, I don't know why you're telling me irrelevant. Help me win with the problem I perceive. And I don't think most clients actually, a lot of depends on the sophistication of the organization, but they don't actually know what they need. They kind of predetermine what they want. So have a way to help them determine what it is they need, but get that early win, whatever that means for you, get your foot in the door with them and earn their trust that early win solidifies the relationship. So how does that translate into like, how you build your agency? Well, where's your specialization? Where is your areas of expertise, and then learn the periphery. Learn how brand strategy plugs into everything. Learn how this leads to sales, and how sales and you know whether this business staff sales is just, you know, conversions online or sales leads to a conversation. How does that? How does what you're doing lead to that? And how can that all be the same team with different roles and responsibilities that they're communicating well? And I think that you know, being really, really good at a few things will serve you well, as long as there's a lot of thinking involved and evaluation, assessments or recommendations. Since I started my company, originally in 2014 what I told everybody that worked with me, whether a collaborator or a contractor or they're bold on to my team, I was like, if you're just going to do what we ask you to do, you're not going to be around very long, but if you can come in and offer ideas and suggestions and recommendations to tell us what we're doing wrong, or tell us where we could be better, then you're extremely valuable to me, and as long as we're getting along, I'm going to keep working with you. And I think that that's the mindset that folks need to come into. Like the agency we're all with, it is a service based industry, but we need to advise our clients. We need to come back and say, This is what we spent. This is what we got. This is the return. These are the metrics that do matter. This is what we're thinking we do next. And that's the critical piece of the equation. Is that, what is this? What do these activities mean? How do they move us forward, and how are we learning every step of the way to improve? You know, while we're driving the bus 120 miles an hour, we're building it and like enhancing it along the way, and we're not sure where we're going, but we just want to make sure, just like Jim Collins said, Good to Great, we'll make sure we have the right people on the bus with us, so when we're hauling ass down the road that we're actually enjoying it, but we're actually making a hell of a lot of progress. Wherever it is we're headed. Yeah. Dan,

Chris DuBois 34:09
yeah.

Speaker 1 34:12
I think it's sort of about the stuff that, thinking about the stuff that was nice to have, that's becoming table stakes, like we talked a lot about specialization, that's kind of old news. I think that's becoming table stakes. And I think the next thing is, is perspective. And I guess what I mean by that is taking a bet on to some degree, and it sounds lofty, taking a bet on the way that you think the world works and like where it is now and where it's going, you know. So you can't be taking those bets all the time and for and you can't be taking those bets in a really, like, wide, big array of situations. It's usually, like, within the domain that you understand, whether that's an industry or a certain type of service or something like that. So part of that's, you know, being able to say, like, if you're, you know, if you're a paid media. A agency for this that and the third vertical then your perspective is, I think, over the next few years, like you're going to have more opportunity than loss by taking on this platform risk, by doing ads on Facebook or LinkedIn, or whatever it is for you, and making that part of your perspective, or it could be something else entirely, like at sales schema, we help people with outbound and agencies without bound, because we're big believers in using trust and referrals and actually owning your channels, as opposed to just like offloading everything to things you don't control, like LinkedIn and Facebook. But you know, I've taken a bet with that, and I could be wrong, and there could events could change and algorithms could change, but that's the way that every single business has to function, right, especially like startups that understand this from day one. So I think that that's going to become the next thing that's, you know, table stakes for making an agency work, if it's not already,

Chris DuBois 35:58
yeah, yeah. Awesome. All right, guys moving all over the place and probably more philosophical than I expected

Unknown Speaker 36:05
for chat bots. Get some chat bots for listeners

Chris DuBois 36:09
you guys want to hit just where people can find

Speaker 2 36:15
you. Bobby, after you sure I just, you know, pivoted my business over a year ago, but we just relaunched a website and changed everything up. So it's bproper.com the letter is B, E, P, R, O, P, r.com, not PR, just knowing,

Speaker 1 36:34
and I'm at sales schema.com 2s in the middle, if that makes sense.

Chris DuBois 36:39
Awesome. All right, guys, thanks for joining.

Unknown Speaker 36:41
Thanks, homie. Appreciate it. Always a good time.

Chris DuBois 36:48
That's the show everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits. You click the link in the show notes to subscribe to agency forward on sub stack, you'll get weekly content resources and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai